Should animals be used as clothing?

[Zerase]

Hmm.. well we're straying kind of far from the original topic but for the sake on convenience I'll reply here.

"They serve a purpose unto themselves." Correct, they do, but you would not be so angry if another animal were to kill the beast and then consume it because it is a carnivore. We have the ability to consume both. I believe the word is omnivore, if I remember correctly. Why have the ability to eat meat if it wasn't meant to be used?

This is what I mean by having the ability to see pain in other beings. I honestly don't believe when my cat catches a mouse that she is aware of the suffering she is inflicting on the little creature. (Reminds me of a quote by Mark twain "Of all the creatures ever made, Man is the most detestable. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain.")

Humans were given the ability to eat meat, and the ability to see pain, and some semblance of a "conscience" (and oddly enough the ability to flourish of a all-plant diet but not the ability to even survive on a all-meat one) I think we were given the responsibility to choose, almost like a test of human compassion or lack thereof. That's how I see it.

I have established that what we do to animals is wrong. There is no argument there. I'm trying to say that we should use the resources we are given once their lives have run out, if it can be done.

If it can be done then I would be much less opposed to it. If they were given the ability to completely live out their natural lives and we gathered up the remains for some human use then I wouldn't see a problem with that (but it doesn't sound very economical does it? Which is why I don't think it'd happen) I still wouldn't wear it because after "seeing the light" the thought of wearing dead animal skin grosses me out. However if it was made out of the remains of content animals who lived their lives out then it would be a case of personal choice, when now it is not.

For thousands of years man has killed and consumed beasts. Why should this suddenly be viewed as immoral? We are farther away from the time of the documentation of morals than anyone who killed beasts and ate them years ago. Nearly every human being has a conscience, and why do we now see this as wrong? I highly doubt that man's conscience has grown stronger throughout history. Look at the world around you and tell me that it has done anything but become laxed.

There's no way I can answer this because I honestly do not know what people were thinking back then. But I DO think that our conscience has grown, though not very much I'll agree. Thousands of years ago it was legal to behead your wife if she was suspected of adultery, as well as kill other human beings for sport (gladiators), not so long ago it was legal to own and beat "your" slaves, and then women were given the right to vote, and we still haven't even given gay people the right to get married. We have grown at least in terms of our treatment to other humans, but we have far to go in spreading that compassion to other animals.

You said that animals use up their natural resources to survive, and we do it mainly for greed, also to survive. If you have ever watched the Discovery Channel for more than...I don't know ten minutes, you can not tell me that greed does not exist in the animal kingdom.I have watched lions pry food from the jaws of heiyenas, (spelling?) both who are trying to survive, and do it immediately after having finished his surviving meal. Is that not greed? He ate his "survival food", and then snatched the "survival food" from the clutches of another beast...Sounds like greed to me.

Have you ever had to fight for survival? Or been so hungry you didn't know if you'd make it to catch your next meal? They eat as much as they can as fast as they can because that IS part of their survival, they don't know when their next meal is going to be or if it'll even come at all. That's a far cry from the greed humans show which is what I am talking about.

[Zerase]

Off topic: Kyle, did you leave?

[Kyle Stark]

No, Im sorry. I have been really busy with school and my birthday was on the 17th...I haven't had much time the past week. I hopefully will get to pound away on that doozy of a message you posted though :]

Kyle Stark

[Kyle Stark]

Alright...Here we go.

I obviously have no way of knowing exactly what a cat knows while it is attacking a mouse, but if you want to speak in pure observational terms, I would have to agree that it probably doesn't fully grasp the pain that it is inflicting on that animal. I agree completely. The animal has the ability to feel pain, and remember what caused that pain as shown by their reactions to reoccuring traumatic experiences and their fear of things that harrassed them when in younger years. Now, I have no way of determining the thought processes of a cat, and having been given common sense...I pretty much have to give this point up :[ Humans are separated in that sense from animals...We have been given the ability to actually comprehend and put words to pain whereas animals do not have that ability. So you would be right.

"Humans were given the ability to eat meat, and the ability to see pain, and some semblance of a "conscience" (and oddly enough the ability to flourish of a all-plant diet but not the ability to even survive on a all-meat one) I think we were given the responsibility to choose, almost like a test of human compassion or lack thereof. That's how I see it."

Most creatures in the animal kingdom, if not all, have the ability to see pain and typically respond to it. It is an instinct that all beasts, humans and animals alike, share. We simply have a higher understanding of it. Every animal I have been around has a sense of pain, right and wrong, (in limited terms, and of the act of inflicting pain. Using dogs as an example, seem to have the ability to control their playful biting from their actual attack bites. They have a grasp on what is too far, and playful, and what will actually harm you. My friend recently got a dog, and whenever I am around it it will bite onto my arm, but never hard enough to hurt me. Whenever I whimper or make a noise resembling fear, panic, or pain it reacts and comes to my side and checks to see if I am alright. They must have some sort of instinctual grasp on pain. We just seem to have an elaborated sense of it. Also, in response to the all meat not working, we are omnivores which means that we can consume both. Not that we can't flourish on an all plant diet, but I would have to say that I am nearly positive that without all the specifically enhanced pills, foods, and suppliments which are designed/grown souly for the purpose to keep those that do not eat specific foods in fully functioning order. I don't want to be rude, but I highly doubt that you would be able to survive in the wilderness by simply eating all plants. Nowadays we probably could flourish on an all plant diet due to technological advancements, but I really doubt that humans could have in the past, which is what makes us alive today...Their fight for survival.

In regards to the economic standpoint, I agree, it would not initially benefit the economy. But that is what economic growth is all about, and how much of life functions. We would need to think in a long term perspective. Time catches up to everything. If we were to allow all the cows which are alive today to live out their natural lives, then sure, for a few years we would be set back, but time would eventually catch up to those cows, and you would be back where you were. We would have to take a set back in order for this to work, but once the order is established, it will continue to function properly. Everything, basically works in this nature. Everything takes a set back to, in time, create real growth.

Wow. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to believe that you feel our conscience has grown. Our toleration, in my mind, is all that has grown. I think that people substitute the words toleration and conscience far too easily. This is for another forum I believe though. I'm going to cut this part out any further.
As for the gladiators though, there really isn't much differnce anymore. People nowadays are killed for no reason instead of glory. I know gladiators were held against their will and slaves of entertainment, but at least there was glory in it. There are unnecessary, and completely pointless executions all over the world every day same as there were back then. Completely "gloryless" (spelling) deaths.

No, you are right. I have never had to do so, but I can think of thousands and thousands and millions of people who have had to, and will continue to do so for most, if not all, of their lives. And as for the fighting for survival, there are many species that if we were to stop hunting them and let them live out their natural lives we would be putting them through many years of possibly starvation and severe over population. Now I'm no hunter, by any means, but were we not to kill the deer and dwindle some of their population they would overpopulate, overconsume, and we would be sentencing them to death by passive agressive means. I don't know about you, but I personally would rather be shot and killed than to have to starve to death. I mean, I've never been shot, but if I don't eat for even like...I don't know 12 hours my stomach is a wreck. I couldn't imagine that feeling intensifying until I died. It would just be horrible. Hunting and the consumption of animals and meat is a necessary part of many cycles of life. It's a sad fact, but a true one. We have to intervene in many circumstances. Often not in the extremes that we do, but it does have to be done. Hunting is a necessity.

Kyle Stark

P.S. Sorry that took so long. Hopefully we continue to talk

[Zerase]

In regards to the economic standpoint, I agree, it would not initially benefit the economy. But that is what economic growth is all about, and how much of life functions. We would need to think in a long term perspective. Time catches up to everything. If we were to allow all the cows which are alive today to live out their natural lives, then sure, for a few years we would be set back, but time would eventually catch up to those cows, and you would be back where you were. We would have to take a set back in order for this to work, but once the order is established, it will continue to function properly. Everything, basically works in this nature. Everything takes a set back to, in time, create real growth.

That's actually a good point, now help me convince the men in the leather industry to make it happen xD In all seriousness though did we ever find out if leather could be made from dead cows? I looked briefly but I couldn't find too much info. But I would be all for implementing a system where cows live out their lives and die naturally and we take the remains, if it's possible. (If not, then I'm going to continue towards getting rid of animal skin as a product all together)

Wow. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to believe that you feel our conscience has grown. Our toleration, in my mind, is all that has grown. I think that people substitute the words toleration and conscience far too easily.

Also good point, you're right tolerance is the word I should have used, my bad.

This is for another forum I believe though. I'm going to cut this part out any further.
As for the gladiators though, there really isn't much differnce anymore. People nowadays are killed for no reason instead of glory. I know gladiators were held against their will and slaves of entertainment, but at least there was glory in it. There are unnecessary, and completely pointless executions all over the world every day same as there were back then. Completely "gloryless" (spelling) deaths.

I can somewhat agree but this is really really off topic so I have to suggest we make a new thread to discuss this in particular

And as for the fighting for survival, there are many species that if we were to stop hunting them and let them live out their natural lives we would be putting them through many years of possibly starvation and severe over population. Now I'm no hunter, by any means, but were we not to kill the deer and dwindle some of their population they would overpopulate, overconsume, and we would be sentencing them to death by passive agressive means. I don't know about you, but I personally would rather be shot and killed than to have to starve to death...

...Hunting is a necessity.

Ok see the problem with that theory is we kill the wolves, bears, and other predators of deer because they "eat our deer" and then when they need an excuse for kill the deer it's "overpopulation." Do you see the issue I'm having here? Stop killing the predators, and nature will work itself out. And very, very rarely do hunters take the sick, old, or weak (Which would be logical if you're killing because of overpopulation) But no, they take the biggest strongest healthiest bucks they can find and mount their heads on the wall "We're helping with overpopulation" Doesn't cut it for me, those men enjoy snuffing out life. I live in the country, I hear them bragging about their kills, and it's wrong.

There are some that kill for meat to eat to "feed their families" and some have actually said to be they do it because of how the cows are treated in store-bought meat. But there's no reason why the money spent on the gun and bullets couldn't be spent on healthy vegetarian food.

P.S. Agreed ^^

[Kyle Stark]

Hahah Good luck with that...Convincing people of that nature to do something environmental is like telling a wolf to eat only plants...It's not gonna happen without complete governmental control, which won't happen do to all of our freedoms :[ I'm sorry, but it's an up-mountain battle. I wish you luck though.

Oh don't worry it's not your bad. I appologize if I made that statement sound directed at you. I just meant that people do it in general. They don't take the true meaning of conscience. They twist it to fit directly with tolerance and the fact of the matter is that they are not the same. They are not interchangeable. People have consciences, senses of right and wrong, and ignoring them seems to be taking the place for its true meaning. Tolerance is the ignorance of the conscience. Some things needs to be tolerated, but we are taking things we know are wrong, and bending our consciences and teaching our children misplaced values.

About the hunters, you are right, there is absolutely nothing I can say about this. Picking off the sick, and weary is what we should be doing, but people treat death as sport. This is relatively off topic, but if you ever watch the movie powder, pretty decent movie actually, there is a guy who loves to hunt and kills for sport. Throughout the movie this kid has the ability to channel the pain of a deer that the man kills and allow the man to feel the pain that he has inflicted upon the animal. It's kind of odd, but it served a good point I think. If we were allowed to feel the pain and fear we place in other species while we were doing the actions, I highly doubt any of it would be done.
We have the right regulations set, but they need some altering. We need, like you said, to eliminate the sick and dying, not the thriving and strong. You are right.

As for the people who hunt to eat, I can't say I agree with you. I mean, I understand they could put their money into other vegetarian diets, but preference is a huge part of life. Not everyone likes to eat plants, and other things of that nature. I know I would absolutely hate to not eat meat. There is NO substitute for it to me. I have those vegan burgers and whatnot and they are nasty. I have tried eating vegetarian, as I stated far earlier, and I hated it. I love meat, and wouldn't stop eating it if I had to. I just love the taste of it. Maybe cutting back a little would be good, but I wouldn't stop eating it.

Kyle Stark

[Zerase]

(Off topic: I need to take a short break from debating, see you soon ^^)

[Brittany]

animals were made to be food, and clothing. why else would they be here?

like kyle said earlier, maybe in the other topic, people grow to contibute to our nation/economy/etc. animals well, they don't. because their specific purpose is to be used for these things.

if not, then please explain to me the purpose of animals on our planet?


-brittany

[rosenquartz]

Animals do not have rights. Sure, we may not -need- to use them as clothing, but nobody's sad feelings should rule that we can't. One day I'm going to be able to afford one of the better made fur coats, and I want there to actually be fur coats around when I'm ready to buy one.

[jackwellman]

I to think that this is the reason that animals are here. To provide food and clothing for humans. Other animals provide food for other animals...as part of the natural food chain. The grasshopper feeds the bird, the bird feeds the cat, etc. It all goes round. A food cycle. I'm not for exterminating animals for sporting them to kill just for fun. Its okay to hunt deer for example if your going to use them for food, but indiscriminate killing is wrong. I knew a guy that loved squirrel hunting, but he simply went out in the country to shoot squirrels out of the trees for sport and left them dead. I don't agree with this and refused to go along with him.